The Shed Pic Thread (losh's request) - please read the rules.

[Skylarking]

He mentioned the use of dyna bolts to secure the hoist, well for starters that's a big no, no and something only dodgy installers use. Dyna bolts are not safe to use on hoists.

For the avoidance of confusion, the following is what JohnC said

The few install guides I’ve seen specify “heavy-duty anchor bolts” of which a dyna-bolt is just one brand name and a one non removable type at that. Some guides specify the exact make and brand…

The Molnar hoist brochure simply references the preferred and alternative anchor bolts, some of which are removable (screw in) and others non removable (expansion bolts).

https://molnarhoists.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/M245Universal-Customer-Guide-PDF-19-May-2016.pdf

The following page specs a few types of heaven-duty anchor bolts, both removable and non removable.

Mechanical Anchoring Archives - Ramset

Ramset has been providing mechanical anchors for over 70 years. Trusted Ramset brands, such as DynaBolt™, TruBolt™, AnkaScrew™ and SpaTec™are renowned for quality, reliability and performance.

ramset.com.au

So whether it’s a removable or non removable anchor bolt isn’t the issues.

From an engineering perspective, the issue is what is the hold down force required of the anchor bolt and what has been verified by manufacturer who will spec something for compliance and legal issues. A manufacturer will never leave it up to the customer to decide what to use (as that almost never ends well)..

Engineering wise there are many ways to skin a cat…

In any case, I’d guess the bigger problem is installation on under speced thin concrete floors or floors with poor concrete strength due to handling issues… After all, whatever the anchor, it won’t help if what it’s put into is crap…

PS: the biggest problem in these one post lifts is not their engineering or the floor strength of their domestic garage, it’s that they don’t have a safety cut out bar at the top which stops an idiot user lifting this car through their garage ceiling

 

[losh1971]

The installer who did mine told me that is is too risky using dynabolts as they are not safe enough. He used some weird ones that are not screw bolts either..

 

[figjam]

I agree with Losh's comments that he does waffle a bit too much in most of his videos , but this video about the moveable hoist was that it didn't need to be bolted to the floor. You could hide it in a corner when not needed.

He says that he was confident in the safety of the load / pitch / yaw movement when the Triton was lifted. His opinion.
My mug's opinion ...... no thanks. I don't have the need, the cash, or the potential death wish.

Just thought it may be of interest to some who are thinking of a hoist, and who do not follow his videos.

 

[Lex]

but this video about the moveable hoist was that it didn't need to be bolted to the floor. You could hide it in a corner when not needed.

I heard him say this too.
So l'm wondering where the "it needs to bolted down" came from?

 

[Skylarking]

The installer who did mine told me that is is too risky using dynabolts as they are not safe enough. He used some weird ones that are not screw bolts either..

The engineers at Molnar have stated the following

ANCHOR BOLTS#

Preferred anchoring system
10 X Ramset Tru-bolts T16150GH
6 X Ramset AnkaScrew AS16115

Alternative anchoring system
16 X Ramset Tru-bolts T16150GH
Minimum 7.5 kN Hold Down Force per Bolt Required for Anchoring.
#Anchor Bolts supplied with Installation Kit (+T) Option, not supplied Standard​

Tru-bolts are heaven duty anchor bolts that look rather similar to dyna-bolts which are a medium dirt anchor bolt. They have a tensile strength of something around 4-32kN verses 3-16kN respectively.

Interestingly, even Molnar’s recommended tru-bolt doesn’t meet their own 7.5kN hold down force requirements (= the tensile strength speced on the Ramset bolt site? where the tru-bolt has a minimum tensile strength of 4kN)… Odd...

Guess what I’m trying to say is that expansion bolts aren’t a problem at all as long as their strength is appropriate so always consult install guides and specs (which can be confusing and apparently inconsistent) Add installer preference and you could get a real pooch screw

Since the docs I’ve seen state heavy duty anchor bolts, that’s what I’d use and as Ramset spec their dyna-bolt as medium duty, I’d not use them… but not just because an installer said so… I’d want to know why and the why isn’t so clear even from an engineering perspective.. that just leave following the manufacturers recommendation from a legal perspective (just to cover your arse)…

As to the types, I only know of expansion, screw and glue type anchors. Curious what type your installer used.

 

[Skylarking]

I heard him say this too.
So l'm wondering where the "it needs to bolted down" came from?

No one said the single poster needed to be bolted down.

JohnC said you don’t have to drill holes and use dyna-bolts and then @losh1971 said/meant you should never use dyna-bolts (in a two poster) as they aren’t safe according to his installer.

 

[vc commodore]

All the hoists I have and have used have a bolt, encased in a metal surround drilled into the concrete, with a nut holding the post to the ground....when the nut is done up, the bolt expands the casing to hold the casing into the concrete....

These are both 2 and 4 posters

I call them dyna bolts....Might have a different name to others...

Every 2 ish years, hoists have to be inspected and adjusted to ensure they are safe to use in a work place environment....Part of their inspection is how they are fixed to the concrete and ensuring those nuts are tight......

So if the way they are fixed to the concrete should be unsuitable, I'd imagine they would fail the safety inspection and would have to be fixed before they could be used...

I recently watched this video of a new hoist being installed, where it just sits on the concrete...Seems a little sketchey to me, so I'll leave others make their own decision

 

[Skylarking]

I call them dyna bolts....Might have a different name to others...

They are called anchors.

They can be light duty, medium duty or heavy duty anchors. There are various brands of anchor fasteners made by Ramset such as dynabolt, trubolt, spactek and ankascrew.

Dynabolt is probably the most well known and many probably use it as a a catch all for all anchor fasteners (I do). Guess its sort of like hoover as used in UK and USA meaning to vacuum

I recently watched this video of a new hoist being installed, where it just sits on the concrete...Seems a little sketchey to me, so I'll leave others make their own decision

Yeah, i'd want it bolted to the floor and leveled off...

The whole idea of a movable 4 poster where each leg changes a little in height as the flat floor undulates would mean the safety locks aren't all in sync and that would have me worrying

 

[Immortality]

I've used various types of ramset type anchors and I don't much like em. If you want to do it properly use the chemset type, those are what was used on Printing Press mounting points when we put in a press and those ******* don't move.

 

[Skylarking]

I've used various types of ramset type anchors and I don't much like em. If you want to do it properly use the chemset type, those are what was used on Printing Press mounting points when we put in a press and those ******* don't move.

Never used Ramsets Chemset but it’s got a rather high tensile strength (>400MPa) and needs a cure time before it can be loaded. I’d guess they are also more costly than medium duty e map ing or screw in fasteners.

http://[URL]https://img.bretts.com.au/ramset-anchor-stud-brochure.pdf

[/URL]

What’s really interesting is that Ramset also have chemset threaded inserts which I didn’t know about

But whatever fastener is used, isn‘t the strength of the concrete itself the weakest link?

Concrete used in housing construction is 32MPa so having a fastener with a tensile strength of 420MPa seems like huge overkill. In such cases the concrete will fail before the fastener does (but that’s even the case with Ramsets Trubolt expanding fastener which doesn’t need a cure time). But what’s used ultimately depends on cost, performance and preference. Maybe chemset anchors have other properties that make them better for some applications above expanding or screw in anchors?

In any case I‘d imaging a building which houses a printing press won’t be using general concrete. I’d think their floors would be made of higher strength or ultra high strength concrete. Ultra high strength concrete can be made to withstand 400Mpa in which case chemset anchors make real sense from a tensile perspective.

Still, it’s always a warm fuzzy feeling when you know the faster won’t fail but the concrete will, so it’s not your arse on the line for choosing a weak fastener